The Happy Producers Podcast - S02EP13
LP: Hello everyone on this episode of the Happy Producers podcast. Well, I'm sorry. Yes, it's not Vi, it's LP because this is a special episode that I wanted to do. I wanted to host because uh things are happening and um I felt like I needed to step in and and and share some information and meet up with someone that I met recently that really inspire hired me because uh that person decided to take charge. Uh the current situation is difficult for everyone. There's a lot of instability in the industry. There's an overall feeling of waiting for things to go back, waiting for the rebound, waiting for someone somewhere to do something about this. And at this point, I feel like we should stop waiting and we should should start acting. And this is where my new friend Mark Van Ee is coming in. Mark, hi. Mark Van Ee: Thank you for being you, being here. And uh can you just briefly introduce yourself? Let me know like who you are just so we have an idea of where you're coming from and what you're doing right now. Mark Van Ee: Yeah. So, my name is Mark Van Ee. I'm a producer, voice actor, creator uh living here in Montreal. Uh I worked in production for about 15 years. Uh I started in Vancouver and was there for most of my career. And then I moved here to Montreal with my wife about five years ago, right when the pandemic started. And uh good timing to move and yeah I've been working here at a few studios since and then uh you know everything kind of changed and I decided to do what I've always wanted to do which is is get more into voice work which is I used to do uh for video games and commercials and stuff and animation and then also create my own animated series which uh I also didn't have the time or resources to do but now I well I made time to do it so uh yeah that's what I'm focusing on now. LP: What's interesting about you and your anim series is that you decided to not wait for anyone else and not wait to be green lit or work with some broadcasters or go through the traditional uh distribution model and you decided to self-distribute on YouTube. Mark Van Ee: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's uh I I I thought the same stuff, right? Like you know, you look at what how do you do this? Do you pitch your studios and that's one way to go? Fact is, I didn't have a show yet and uh I talked about it with a lot of people I used to work with in animation. and you know, but you can't pay anyone to do this. Like it's a passion project, but no one's going to get excited about your passion project like you are. So, but again, I'm not an animator. I went to school for a film school, uh, like writing, directing. I've never worked in animation, only as producer. Uh, I know, you know, how hard it is and how much how time consuming it is. Uh, but yeah, I just I thought the only way this is going to get made is if I do it myself. So, I, you know, researched there's tons of different, you know, programs. There's Tounboom, there's I settled with Adobe programs, Character Animator, uh, seem very userfriendly. Uh thing I like about Adobe programs, they all talk to each other. They're all kind of synced. So you update this and this updates automatically, which is a huge timesaver. Yeah. So I just jumped into it. Like I had a bunch of stuff written. I had designs from a previous colleague that did them for me years ago. And I thought, you know, I'll just I'll just see if I can do this. And just tinkering here and there, and I realized, wow, I I I think I can do this. So I just kept going and going, and before you knew it, I could I could actually uh do it myself, which was uh I didn't know if I could, but you know, it just took a little bit of time and uh yeah, here I am. LP: That's very inspiring. Can you like what's the name of your show? Mark Van Ee: Uh AstroNots. LP: AstroNots. And we're gonna we're going to have the link to the show in the in the show notes for everyone listening right now so that you can click on it and start watching. It's quite funny. I watched all the episodes so far and it's really great and I was really impressed to know that you're not an animator and that that for me was really interesting. The fact that you're a non-animator and you use the tools are available now to create the animation that you need. That is very interesting. And I think that when before we started recording, we kind of discussing some ideas and you kind of brought up the fact that the current situation is a little bit a mystery for a lot of people. Why are we in that situation? What's going on? Is it going to come back? Why aren't studios giving work to uh like the big studios giving work to Canadian studios are studios worldwide. What's going on? Mark Van Ee: Yeah. LP: And I I personally I understand all that stuff because I'm studying it all the time and I'm doing research about that topic trying to understand it. And I found that interesting that you didn't have the same kind of like view over this that for you it was a little bit opaque and you didn't understand. And I realized even more even coming from a professional like you. If that's unclear to you, it's unclear to so many other people and if there if I have one mission it's to bridge the gap between all the people in the animation industry and the business aspect of it how things work uh what happens what can we do how can we act so if you don't mind I'm just going to do a quick summary of my understanding of the current situation what led us here and why I believe there's not going to be necessarily a comeback a a a big renewal or like going back to how things were, but that we are in a momentum of change and we must find ways to adapt. And you are a great example of that. So, if you're okay with it, I'm going to jump in with my Mark Van Ee: course. Yeah. Cut me anytime you want, by the way, with questions because I think that the questions you're going to have might be the questions people might have in the uh listening to us. So, I think that's going to be a good thing. LP: Yeah. Um, over the last few months, I've been studying a lot the science of change and there are two books that great ly influ in influence the way I help me to understand the situation in the industry right now. I would say even three books. Um the first two books are uh Whiplash. I'm going to have the the the the the notes in uh the show notes as well so you you you people can can listen to it. Whiplash which is a book written by the director of the MIT Media Lab which is a very highly creative space where they create a bunch of new tech where they exp explore new science, all those sorts of things. And that person specifically has been at the forefront of change his entire life, very technologically driven. And in that book, they kind of go through nine different attitude that we must put forward to be able to adapt to change. And they talk about a lot what are the triggers of change. And the interesting thing about our recent world is that we've never seen such rapid change and right now change is happening at an expan exponential rate. Mark Van Ee: Right? LP: So like even like 150 years ago our ancestors they would live their whole life without anything changing. Their life would be static. There would be nothing that would change their life or affect their life. Whereas for us we already had many changes that were triggered by different types of technologies. Yeah. So there are technologies that you know If we use like the example of AI and I don't want us to start talking about AI but a lot of people talk about AI as just a tool that's bull crap because AI is not a tool it's a general purpose tool technology sorry a general purpose technology and what those are they are world changing lifechanging tools that change everything and scientists have basically listed out 25 of those tools, 25 of those technologies that have changed everything for the human race. It starts with fire, the wheel, agriculture, um the printing press, uh the the the the steam engine, the motor engine, electricity, internet, all those things, right? Mark Van Ee: Right. LP: Those technologies every time they happen And that they talk about in the other book which is called the power of pull like pulling those technology when they come in when they they reach societies they change the very fabric of the society they change they affect everything they transform every every everything and then there's a momentum of change that happens and I was reading those books and spec spec specifically the power of Paul and it was the book was written 15 years ago and they were describing what happens in a industry in a system that's going through massive change what they call a big shift right and it is exactly what's going on in the animation in the effects industry right now textbook the book was written 15 years ago Mark Van Ee: yeah LP: and it's describing exactly what's going on right now so that wave of change that big wave of change is something that we're not going to go back to it's not going to go back to normal None of those things will go back. Now, what's interesting again is that the current change, the current situation didn't started yesterday, didn't started because of COVID. No, it's accumulation of and you're a great example of that into what you're doing right now. New technology and new tool that are opening up the industry to more players. Mark Van Ee: Mhm. LP: We have such great tools, CG animation, 2D animation as well where the price of entry and by price I don't necessarily mean just money price, but just like the amount of time that you have to invest to jump into animation is much lower than before. Mark Van Ee: Yeah. LP: So, I've got like a Disney book behind me, right? Back then, like in the golden era of Disney, from the first film that they made until like CG animation came in, until Pixar, I would say, making animation had a very high cost of entry. You had to study years and years and years and years and years. Yeah. To sharpen your skills. And it was you, your pencil, and your sheet of paper. like there's no like you're naked in front of your art, right? Completely naked. You have nothing to protect you, right? So, the price of entry was very high. You had to invest yourself a lot. CG came in all of a sudden the price of entry is lower because the tool, if you're not a great drawer, right? But you still have those creative artistic skill. You can jump in, learn the tool, and then you can be a great artist using that different tool. In that case, the CG tools were great tools. Mark Van Ee: Mhm. LP: Right. Right. So, but they created that change. They started that change and all those tools that were created CG animation u all the various tool the Adobe tools uh everything from um you know soft image to Maya uh all those all those tools Avid all this just made it more accessible for people to jump in and be able to collaborate into that industry. Mark Van Ee: Totally. LP: What that did was 30 years ago who was doing animation you had animation in all would uh even 30 years ago yadleb small small uh industry in Canada you had a little bit of in Europe Japan that was it that was 30 years ago since then it became global we have animation studios everywhere in the world what does that do when you're studying economics there's more competition what happens to price go down it's normal this is economic law you can't do anything about it. So there's not like an overpowering ruler up there deciding I'm going to reduce all the production cost and I'm going to squeeze those artists. No, it does not happen like that. This is just basic economic laws. Mark Van Ee: Yeah. LP: And now what basically put the nail in the the coffin is the streamers were they invested heavily and for the first time production budget went up a lot during co and the streamers war which impacted everyone because all of a sudden there that's what I call the gold rush era of animation right because everyone had work everyone had great quality work super big budget everyone thought that would last forever but that was unreasonable for the streamers to invest that much amount of money and they realized that with the strikes Mark Van Ee: yeah LP: strikes came in production stops and they realized hey we're still making money off subscriptions and we overspent trying to make too much content. What do we do now? So now we're kind of rebalancing all this and I'm going to I'm going to complete this monologue by just talking about the fact that the streamers, they also broke the business model of content that was there for like 30 years where broadcasters, TV stations would make money off advertisement. They would use some of that advertisement money to invest in new shows. That was a great system that work for a long time. Streamers came in, they broke that model. People don't watch TV anymore. Therefore, they're making me less less money out of advertisement. They have less money to invest in new shows. Budgets are going down. Here we are, right? So, that's the current situation. There's no come back, bounce back, none of those things. And I don't want to be negative or I don't want to like I we just need to be realistic about how things change and things will change even further. with like in a few years from now where AI tool to tools will be widely available and accessible. Mark Van Ee: Yeah. LP: And there's nothing to do we can do to stop that. We can maintain that. We can control that somehow can contain it. And uh the book the coming wave by uh Mustafa Sullean who's um one of the co-founders of deep mind which is Google's uh AI uh branch wrote an amazing book called the coming wave. which is incredibly depressing about the topic of what's coming in terms of change not only with AI but with all the new technologies biotechnology robotics and all those things. So that big change is coming and yes there's going that's the topic for another discussion I guess but the change is coming and here you come you step in you're a producer you're based in Montreal you have a family and you decide not to wait after the things to come back you you don't even know all this that I just explain you you just decide I'm just going to do something about it and you decide to act and you don't decide to start your own business. You don't decide to like build your own studio. You're like no I'm going to be my own studio and I'm going to do my own show and I find that is extremely uh inspiring. So tell me how did you come up with the idea the courage uh like tell just tell us about your first steps. Mark Van Ee: Yeah so the uh I mean I I I conceived of the show a quite a gez seven eight years ago uh when I was working on Rick and Morty. I mean obviously it takes place in space. It's called AstroNots but it wasn't you know that's where it came from but it just I I used to work with a few writers in in Vancouver. We used to I say writers like we are writers but we would just meet up and hang out and just spitball and come up with silly ideas. And this one kind of grew out of that and it was completely different when I conceived of it. And uh it was I liked I thought it was great. Then you're like actually no And then you change it, you change it, and it just evolves over time. And then eventually I ended up with this idea where um you know, in the future everything is owned by one company. Uh I think when I came up with it, it was Netflix and now maybe it's another company and it just uh you know, everything is owned by a company and that company happens to be a uh you know, a channel like just everything is filmed, everything's TV, everything's reality, like everything. So instead of NASA being owned by NASA, it's basically owned by this network. and they just turn everything into a show because that's the only way you can pay for anything. So that was the idea. Uh I wrote a pilot. Uh of course that changed so many times. Uh I had designs I mentioned I had a a former colleague who is a designer who designed these things for me. Uh so I've been sitting on those for years and then I just thought this is never going to get made. It's just kind of like this dream this passion project that like you know the only the traditional way the only way this will be made is if I work at a studio. They have you know their little pitch sessions like hey pitch us your show and then maybe we'll develop it and you know studios have done that and I've worked at studios that have done that and they they might go somewhere they might not. I I see shows being made that way at other studios now which is awesome. I'm glad studios still do that but the you know the amount that it actually happens is obviously like you know 1% or less. So I thought instead of waiting for that opportunity I'm just going to see like how can I do this myself? Like is it possible? Cuz like I know better than anyone how hard it is to make animated shows because like having worked with them for years and like there's so much to it, right? Everybody just sees a show and they people that don't know, they're like, "Wow, that that looks cool. How long did that take? Like a couple weeks?" You're like, "No, like that took like a year to do that whole season." And then people will watch it in one sitting, right? Or like two sittings. Like, "Oh, that was great. When's the next season?" You're like, "That took us a year." Like it's it's there's so much to it from like the voicing, even the voicing and the writing, we didn't even handle, right? That's all done in LA. But like all the backgrounds, all the designs helping with that, all the animation, the comp, the effects, everything. It takes so long. And so that's Part of the reason I didn't even consider doing this because I knew how hard it was to do and how much was involved until, you know, my wife is just like, well, like how hard can is there any way you could like maybe you could do this part of it? Maybe you could get help with that part of it. I'm like, yeah, maybe, maybe. So, she kind of encouraged me to look into it. Like, is it possible to do some of it and then get help? I'm like, okay, well, I'll look into it. And then, like you said, with the emerging with the the software that's changed so much, it's it's never been so userfriendly. And, you know, everyone I know that works in it when to school for it and you had to go to school for it because but but these days like just the same way that I like anything around the house like fixing stuff and like from plumbing to electrical like just look it up YouTube is it there? Yeah, there's a video there's there's a whole channel on this one aspect of doing that amazing. So there's one channel I followed his name is okay Samurai he actually works for Adobe and he covers mostly just character animator which is where I do all the animation and his tutorials are so good. They're so easy to understand. He's very very he's got a really good Okay. So like as soon as I found that I'm like I think I think I can pull this off but it takes a lot of prep work. So like taking the designs I have you can't just take the design throw it in the program and it works right. You have to build the characters. So now you can you know the elbows bend and the the the eyes blink. What's what's really amazing about Adobe's uh character animator is that they use their your webcams your camera system to follow your blink. So whenever I see the character I'm literally sitting at this desk and if I want to look right look right I look right. If I want to look to the left keyboard handles the pupils and like the the camera will follow my mouth and there's ways it'll actually read the recording that I do. I do all the voices as well. So, I built you can't see it. I have a little booth here that I turn this closet, this um little hall closet into a recording booth with a mic and the foam and I record everything here in this room and as soon as I have that, I bring it in and I, you know, I I might fuss with the, you know, voice just a bit to sound, you know, the way I want it to. Uh, again, an Adobe program and then it syncs to the program and you put it all in Of course, there's a lot of prep. Uh, the funnest part is the writing and the voice work. I love doing the voice work. I'm doing that outside of the show as well. More more voice here. Uh, luckily being in Montreal, there's so much voice work and gaming specifically. Yeah. So, I'm trying to break into that with a with the agent I have now. But it's Yeah, putting it all together takes a long long time. And yeah, my videos are, you know, I think the first one's five minutes and then the second one's seven, the third one's going to be more like eight. Uh, I'd love to hit 10, but like it does 10 minutes it takes weeks and weeks and weeks, right? But, you know, weeks for doing a 10-minute animation entirely with one person, I think is, you know, still impressive. Uh, coming from, you know, shows where, you know, a 20-minute episode that takes months with, you know, 30, 40, 50 people. Of course, they're crazy shows, like coming from shows I've worked on that are just so impressive. Like, I I I absolutely do not consider my show on par with like anything that I've ever worked on. But it's, you know, it's all you got to start somewhere. And to me, it's a stepping stone. Okay, I'm just going to start. And for me, the hardest part has been kind of like moving on and letting go cuz you could work on something forever and just be like I could I could keep tweaking this or keep writing this or keep animating. I could add more. I could add twe I could add this. I could add that. But like it'll never get out. And my goal is to just like okay I don't want to say good enough but like okay I do say that quite a bit. You know what? Good enough. Move it on. Just let it go. Put it out there. And I just I'm every time I'm working on an episode, I'm trying to focus on enjoying the process of enjoying what I'm doing in the moment. But I also also want to get it done so I can move on. because I do have a plan for the series. I have a plan for the characters. I have a there's there's there's a whole lot of stuff that obviously I haven't revealed yet. Like it's all it's all written out for for years to come. Um but you know, it takes time. So, and and every little like life stuff that gets in the way like, okay, I have this day planned to do this and all of a sudden like, oh, you know, uh daycare called the there's something going around, baby has to stay home. Like, okay, the day is gone. I can't do anything today. Uh and you just have to just walk away. Or like last week I had this audition for a for a game and it took a lot of prep work. Okay, I I have to focus on that now. because that's important is getting more into the voice and gaming. So yeah, it's it's been fun. It's been crazy. But like it's uh I'm I feel very lucky that I can do this all at home. I can do it myself. I don't rely on anyone. I don't have someone kind of breathing down my back like, "Hey, is it done yet? Is it done yet?" Because I know that is a big part of our industry is like sticking to a schedule and like, "Okay, it has to be done this Friday and doing overtime and weekends." Like I don't have to do that. It is a luxury. I know. Um, but it's uh, yeah, it's it's it's been quite the ride. LP: I mean, like I I I just love the way you describe that and I love the way how you just decided to be courageous enough to do the things that you don't know nothing about because that's what uh, you could do at that point and and and there are so and and there's a lot of innocence in the way that you jumped into that and that's beautiful. Like something that a couple things came to mind when you were talking. The first thing is Since we started the happy producers, Vjini and I, there's one thing that we keep on repeating and she took it from one of her coach was the phrase done is better than perfect, right? And and you are an example of that. Done is better than perfect. Why? Because it's out there. Because there's no excuse of yes, but yes, but yes, but no, it's out. It's not perfect. It's like it is what it is, but I've done it and you've done it, right? And yes, like Someone could come in that and criticize the way you animate or criticize the course they will your choice of cuts and all that but you know what you've done it and that is a huge huge thing and I think that's where I would like people to listen to this and be inspired by that you know you are not fundamentally an artist and you decided to train yourself with the available tool and that's where it's interesting when think back about my introduction where where I say the price of entry is now lower. You could never have done that five years ago. Mark Van Ee: No, LP: five years ago those tools did not exist and now you can do it right. So I think that there's something extremely extremely interesting interesting and a great opportunity there that you just decided to take and it takes a lot of courage and I just wish and I'm going to go back to my mention about innoc innocence. There's one of the very influential book for me was Zen mind beginner's mind which is a book about the Buddhist philosophy, about medstation and all that. Not only this, but it's just like a super great book about just how what kind of outlook we should have on life. And what the author keeps on reminding us is that a beginner's mind is often more powerful than the expert's mind because the expert will see all the nooks and crannies and little things that are essential and necessary, but I can't do this because I need this, that, and the other thing, and I need that other thing and I need that context and I need that much money. You came in with a beginner's mind, a fresh open mind and your goal was just to make it. And there's so much power in that. And I think that everyone listening that are all animation experts. Maybe we all need to take a step back and open up our beginner's mind and be like, okay, things are different now. If I put aside, yes, I invested five, 10 years of my life learning this tool or learning this skill or doing that thing. How can I take the best of what I know from this and use it differently? And you you just did that. You were an expert at production and you decided to do the one thing that you didn't know nothing about. And that is extremely inspiring and I absolutely love that. And I think that people need to start scratching their head and being like, what can I do different? Can I can I do one thing? Because if there's a perverse uh effect of the massive growth of the animation industry. It was the hyper specialization of everyone. Sorry, it's a hard word for me to say, but everyone became so specialized, so so specialized that it then limits our options. And I think that at this point, just like you prove it by becoming a generalist, becoming a person that is doing it all, right? You're doing the voice, you're doing the the the scripts, you're doing the editing, you're doing the animation, you're doing the whole thing, right? You're doing your own marketing, you're doing your own everything. You're doing your own YouTube channel. I think that that generalization is a great school, a tool for the future. That's a great skill for the future. Being more versatile and having different aptitudes that we can just use that hyper specializ being highly specialized. Being highly specialized is just a way to get stuck. And we got stuck. A lot of us got stuck by being hyper specialized. And you are proof that Uh, it's never too late and you can always bounce back. Tell me about your first step like because that's what I want to hear because a lot of people are curious about putting their shows on YouTube, right? Tell me a little bit about those first steps. What have you learned so far because you're still early in that process and I find that interesting because right now you're proof that it can be done. It's approachable. You're like a few steps ahead of a bunch of people but you're not like miles ahead. You're just like a step and that's great. And I think that there's a great uh There are great uh lessons in there. So just tell us about where you are now in terms of that YouTube platform. Mark Van Ee: Yeah. So uh I mean just like anything else that I think about doing or looking up I obviously just start with Google. Just look it up. The the beauty of the internet is anything that you any question you have it's out there. There's a hundred people before you that have had the same question and there's whole channels of people answering the question. So anytime like okay how do I start a YouTube channel? Boom. There's like a thousand videos on starting a specific animation channel from scratch. So I always start with just doing a quick Google search finding video on YouTube. Some of them A lot of them are filler and fluff and you're like, "Okay, you just want me to subscribe to your channel." I get it. But there's a lot of really good ones and I have some favorites of just how do I do this? So, I I just start with what do I want to do today? I look it up. Someone else has already thought of it and a ton of answers are already out there and I just kind of read. So, research, just do the research, look it up. Uh, starting YouTube channel is actually really easy. Uh, as far as like making a living off of it, that just comes with time, right? Just like monetization, you need like 500 followers. You need so many views per video. that just comes with time. Like you can't rush that. I know that there's there's videos that say, "Oh, if you do this, you get a thousand followers instantly." Like, yeah, they're all they're not real. They're bots. They're fake numbers. There's It never works out. Of course, there's you'll find plenty of videos that say just don't do it. It's not worth it because even if you have this inflated base of like, "This guy has 10,000 followers. It might not be true." There's plenty of people that do though, and they're doing very well at it. I know that the the success ratio is very low for people that are putting out content like this, but, you know, a lot of it is, you know, it just matters on the sub And to me, like I I I think I have a good enough product to make a show that people want to watch and that's really it. Like you just got to believe in yourself and just go for it because if you don't do it to me, I mean I come back to my wife again. It's it's always that like it's one of those things that if you didn't do it, are you going to think back when you're 70 or 80 and be like, "Ah, I wish I did that thing. I feel like I could have done that." So it's that I don't want to have the regret of not trying. Uh so for me, like I had the designs, like I mentioned, I I should say one thing I don't do ever. The only thing I don't do besides the design is the music. My my awesome cousin based out of LA, he does the music for it. Uh you know, he he he's just he's a great guy. So, he just I asked him last time I saw him, he's like, "Oh, yeah, happy to do it." So, it's all these little things of like if you can't do something, you know, you can't do it, don't be afraid to ask someone, hey, I can't can you is there any way? And like who? They might say yes because I initially thought no, I'm not going to bother him with that and he's going to say no, but he's like, yeah, happy to. So, anything that you can get help with Absolutely. If you know someone, ask them. And if you don't and you got to do it yourself, it might be easier than you think. Like a lot of these things, like there's so many tutorials on it. And when I when I first watched I think the first tutorial I watched in animation, I was just kind of like, as I'm watching, I'm just like, I don't know if I can do this. And I I said the same to my wife after I watched like this one-hour tutorial. I'm like, I I don't think I have what it takes to pull this off. Like it's super intimidating to do something that like people go to school for this and they pay a lot of money and they go like months and months and months of it like I don't know if I can pull this off but like the fact is like and it's not necessarily AI like maybe Adobe uses AI in their program to make things easier than they were like I'm sure like the facial recognition and like the lip sync to the recordings is there might be AI on play there I'm sure there is but to me I don't necessarily care I just like if it's going to if it's going to make it that I can make it without getting someone to help me to do it because like I can't pay people to do make the show with me. Uh it's again it's a passion project like I just need just start with what can I do? And I do think that Adobe's made it really really easy to do a lot of stuff that like you said 5 years ago I I couldn't have pulled off and a lot of these programs if you look it up they all start at like 2019 2020 is when a lot of these kind of tutorial videos started like hey we have this now we have this now so it hasn't been that long and I find there's there's a few programs or channels I should say that do make everything just like me with Adobe all Adobe programs and I try to watch those show too because they have you know similar techniques and they have their own videos on how to and I am planning to do those as well because I have a lot of good friends that reach out like hey how did you do that like I don't know like was it easy was it hard and like some things are really tricky like the technical aspect like you can't like I said you can't just jump into it like it takes I think it took me about two months of like building these characters of just like tra so that they will actually work in the program like you can't just take this thing drop it in like it works like you see so many AI videos out there just like wow and Adobe is even coming out with these crazy things like They can it can autogenerate views in 2D which is crazy. That's never been before and that is that is a new AI thing and I don't even think it's out yet. It's just like this beta thing that they just showcased recently but like these crazy innovations that like are on their way and are going to make it even even easier. Um of course like yeah this it's is it scary for like designers or people that like okay this had to be design and now maybe with AI generating backgrounds and stuff like that like yes there is less of a need for certain jobs in our industry. of course, but like that's just the way it kind of is in every industry always, right? Like there's a change now. This is done differently. I I'd like to think that there will always be a need. Of course, there will always be a need for designers because I've I've tried kind of toying around like there's there's there's online AI programs like, "Hey, we'll generate this thing for you and just tell us what you want." And every time I try, I'm like, "This this this looks no this this will not work. I'm not no I I need to use like a real design from a real person because I feel like right now, and again, maybe it'll change I can tell. And if I can tell, I'm sure a lot of people can tell that that's it's it's not there yet. Maybe it'll change soon. I don't know. Um, but yeah, it's a it's it's a time where I feel like yeah, the tools are out there. So, if if you're someone like me who has an idea and you're like, I have a script. I think I can do the voices. I don't know if I can pull you can. You absolutely can pull it off. It takes some time whether if you got a job, you can get doing evenings, weekends, just like it's it it takes time, but it's easier than you think. That's the advice that I would have. LP: And and I think There's something important also like you know one of the big thing we talk about a lot in everyone I work with is always the scope of work right like you know you work with a client they come in with a budget if you overcommit on the scope of work or if the client is too demanding on the scope of work it's going to be difficult it's going to affect quality and all that it's the same thing with what you're doing because you chose a scope of work that was manageable for you. Mark Van Ee: Yeah. LP: So you don't have 20 characters on screen. You don't have like you don't change location five times in one episode. You don't have those things. Your show is a sitcom where you have characters talking and exchanging and that's the product that you created. You created a product that had a scope of work that was manageable for one person. Right. Mark Van Ee: Right. LP: You're not redoing the Lord of the Rings. Mark Van Ee: No. LP: Right. That would be a different product. And I think that's also important where if someone wants to put their thing out there, it needs to be shaped in a way where you can manage that with you or a bunch of people that you gather with you and decide that you're going to create a show together. And I think that's that's very very important. Think about that scope of work because you're going to have to like as you said, it's a lot of work, right? But if you made your show too complicated, Mark Van Ee: Yeah. LP: it would just make your life harder. And would it be helpful on the back end? I'm not sure if you would get more likes and more views and more all those things, right? Mark Van Ee: Exactly. And it's funny. I I think about this a lot when I'm writing and then when I get into animation. There's a lot of things I plan to do and then I get into it and you're like, "Oh man, that's going to take days or I was like, "Do I need it? Do I really need it?" And a lot of that came from uh like shows at work at Morty when I worked on and working with the still the current director Nathan and he was so good at like reading your script. You're like, "Don't need that, don't need that. Simplify, simplify, simplify." There's so many things that you can do at the script stage that will make it so much easier on the animators or the comp team, everyone. And I I'm always kind of thinking of that when I'm making it. The first episode, you'll see, is very, very rudiment. One location in a spaceship. I planned it that way because I didn't want to spend too much time different location. Second episode, okay, we have a few locations and I think I'll keep it to like three or so per episode because it's just every time you move somewhere. And I've had people that talk to me like, oh, you could introduce this character, you could add this. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, adding a character to this show is weeks and weeks and weeks of work. I can't just add a character. Like, it takes a long time to get there. So, I'd like to stick with who I have. Like, it it took a months of kind of making all the characters that I even have, and I'm going to introduce like another one in that third episode. So, it's just like every little additional thing you see it it just takes time. So whenever I'm thinking about adding something I stop myself and go hold on do I really need this? Is it really necessary? And like I I I've gotten advice from other animator friends like you know wide shots are good for establishing the shot. Sure. But as soon as you can punch in and frame tighter so you don't have to worry about the feet, you don't have to worry about the hands, do it right. So all these little tips and tricks that like you know you would learn in animation school but like they would know and you know that comes from watching shows and things that you wouldn't even really notice that they don't even really know is like framing tighter. Yes, it makes it easier on you for, you know, avoiding certain aspects of animation, but now you can really see closely at all the little things. So, you have to make sure that all your eyes are built properly and your pupils are moving in the right direction. And again, I'm not a professional animator by any means. So, like I'm still even learning this as I go and sometimes I'm in there, I'm like, ah, this doesn't look good enough. So, uh, you know, I can still go in and kind of change the character like, okay, the eyes are kind of bugging me or like, oh, they're poking out here and there and like it's certainly not perfect. There's no kind of comp phase for anything with Adobe. So, I can't like once it's all done go in and kind of like clean this up or paint it. It's just like it's all done within animation. So, you don't have that luxury. Uh so, it has to look good. But then, yeah, you just have to be like, like I said, good enough looks great. I good enough for me. That's it. I'm making it for me. And another thing is too is trying to think of, you know, you get in your own head like, oh, I think I think this group of people would find this funny or I think this group of people like no, I just got to make it funny for me. Does it make me laugh? Am I chuckling to these jokes enough? Okay, I think it's good. I just got to put it in and write it and record it and do and move on and I just got to go on to the next one because if you just dwell on I'm like is it could it be funnier? Of course. Of course it could be funnier. Like I'm I'm I still call myself a writer but you know I haven't worked on big big shows or I have like huge writing credits. It's funny enough for me and it's good enough to just kind of get it out there and like that's the whole you know get the fan base, get more people watching. Hopefully people like it if and I can just keep doing this is kind of the dream. Um but yeah, it's yeah it's a lot. Yeah. LP: And and you're in it for the long game. And I think that's very very important. Uh we live in an era as I said at the beginning like change is happening faster and faster. But we also like change is happening fast. Um but we want things to change for ourselves always faster than that. Like we don't want to wait. We don't want to like invest like months and months and months before yeah making some kind of seeing some kind of return for that work. But uh these things take time and you know when I used to work uh I I still work with collaborate with a lot of studios. They're doing their business development and they always ask me how long it's going to take, right? How long it's going to take before we get a project. I'm like your first year is going to be really slow. Mark Van Ee: Yeah. LP: Because you need to build that like if you're working in a studio or you're building a studio, it takes years before you start working your your network, your like your your reputation, people trust you. At least 12 months to 18 months before you start seeing reaping the results of that. And it's going to be slow and It's normal. And I said that to someone this week. I said, don't don't confuse slow and early with it's not working. Mark Van Ee: Right. LP: Right. It's because you're there. You're at the stage where you're just starting. So, no, like you just planted the seed. You're not seeing the sprout yet. It's normal. Mark Van Ee: Yeah. LP: Right. So, it's it's all that. And I I feel like that's where your head is at the right place saying I'm doing it for myself. So, you're taking a lot of fun doing it right now for yourself. which is extremely important. Uh you're hoping for great results, but at the same time, you're like, I'm going to keep on doing this and I know it's I'm here for the long game. And that also is extremely important because you cannot rely on this to be your current source of income or your current like it's not supporting your livelihood right now, but it could support your livelihood a year, two years from now, maybe. Yeah. Right. But if you don't start like it's super cliche. I think I saw it 20 times this week. I don't know why it's becoming that that quote like that Zen quote that says the best time to plant a tree is 20 years from now. Mark Van Ee: Yeah. LP: And the second best time is today. Like it's very cheesy, but it's so so so true. Like if you don't start to build those long-term things, you never get there. Mark Van Ee: Yeah. LP: You know, you never get there. I started writing a book this year. Yeah. The long dream. Am I gonna wait to get like a publisher, an agent, and all those things? No, I just started writing the book. I have my notes. I take time. I start writing the book. Is it gonna happen? I don't care. Right now, I'm just enjoying the process of doing that thing of writing that book. And you're doing the exact same thing with this series. And you are so so inspiring. And I hope that one year from now, we're going to do like another episode. We're going to see how things are with you, what this brought you. Because here's the thing, that can bring you other kind of interest, other kind of contract, other kind of like separate gigs. that you can get from this that can help you on your creative side, that can help you on your producer side, that can help you on your voice side, that can help you on your writing side. It becomes an amazing business card that you have, which is your show. What have you been doing for the last year? I've been doing that, folks. Mark Van Ee: Yeah, LP: that's amazing. So, I'm looking forward to checking in with you a year from now. Final words. Mark Van Ee: Oh, uh, just do it. LP: Just do it. No, Nike has that one. No, it's uh, it's Yeah, if if you've been thinking about doing this, just just do it, you know, just just start doing it. And if you find it's hard, it is hard and it takes a little bit of time and you won't see results for a couple months because it takes a while to build the character before you can get into it. But once you start seeing it, like actually seeing footage of like the characters moving and blinking and talking to it's just so rewarding and it's enough that like yeah, it'll take weeks and weeks and weeks or months until you even put something out that's five minutes long. And yeah, it took a long time for five minutes, but like even the little bit of positive feedback and like don't even worry about that. Don't worry about making money off it. It's just how you'll feel after. It's It's so worth it. It's totally worth it. LP: Definitely. And I should just like close by saying that it's because of your show that I got to know you because I saw that you were publicizing your show on LinkedIn. H I went to check your shows. I really liked it and then we got in touch with each other and here we are. So, see that that for me that's a seed and now you have like a platform. You you speak you're you're with us and we don't have the biggest following but we have a good following. So, it's fun that you're a part of that and now it's bringing like it's shining some light on you and that's the point to create those things. It's shining light back on you. It's making you stand out in that very crowded market. And that's what I wish for so many people like the ones that really feel like they have a voice and they want to say something. Well, start doing something. Start putting it out there. It takes a lot of courage, but you can do it. Mark, you're so amazing. I thank you so much. I'm looking forward for us to meet because we're both in the same city, but we never met. Mark Van Ee: Not yet. LP: Face to face. to go grab a couple of beers together. So, keep it up. We'll have all the notes and links in the show notes so you can check out Mark's uh super great show and uh I'm looking forward to seeing you again, my friend. Mark Van Ee: Thank you so much for having me. I really uh really appreciate it. LP: Sounds good. Mark Van Ee: Cool. Thanks,
